SPEAKER_00 0:01

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SPEAKER_03 0:18

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SPEAKER_02 1:36

I have come to understand that I am a part of God, that I'm not separate, Mernon, from God, neither are you, neither are any of us, that there is no such thing as separation from God. I have come to understand through my conversations with God that every soul in the universe is an individuation of divinity. We are each, if I could use a metaphor, fingers on the hands of God. So we're not identical, but we're not separate from each other. We are all one part of the same body. So when I move to a place in my life where I could embrace the notion, embrace the truth that I am connected to and one with the divine, then I began to ask myself, then what am I doing here? If I really am, if my soul really is an individual expression of the divine, why in the world would it come to this realm of physical expression where there's so much suffering and anxiety and fear and where there's so much negativity? There are nice things, of course. There are wonderful parts of this world, no question. But why would I come to this place where there's so much negativity? And if I really am an individual expression of God. And that caused me, Myrna, to explore what the French would call my raison d'ître.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Welcome to the Transform Your Mind podcast. I'm your host, Life Coach Myrnie Young, and today's guest is someone whose work has influenced millions of people around the world. I'm speaking to the one and only Neil Donald Walsh. He is a New York Times bestselling author of the Conversation with God series, translating in over 37 languages, and widely regarded as one of the most influential spiritual books of our time. His newest book, Letters to a Young Seeker, Departing Thoughts from an Elder, is a collection of 21 heartfelt letters offering timeless wisdom for navigating life with greater peace, purpose, and self-awareness. Each letter is paired with a beautiful poem by his wife, award-winning poet Emma Clare, creating a unique blend of spiritual insight and emotional resonance. In today's conversation, we'll explore what Neil has learned after decades of seeking, teaching, and living, and how these lessons can help us transform our minds and lives. Neil is also a returning guest. So, Neil, welcome back to the Transforming Mind Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Thank you, Myrna. It's lovely to be here with you. I always enjoyed the time I spend with you. How can I serve you?

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Oh, thank you, Neil. Yes, yes. We had a fabulous conversation last time, and you even asked me a question that caused me great consternation. But today we're today we're gonna stay off of dangerous ground. So yes, you can serve me by, you know, one of the first question I have here is about your subtitle. Your subtitle is Departing Thoughts from an Elder. You know, that shows quiet humility in those words. So when you look back over your what your life, Neil, not just your successes, but your mistakes and suffering, what truth took you the longest to learn? And why do you think human beings resist that lesson?

SPEAKER_02 5:37

I think the truth that it took me the longest to learn. And by the way, it was an interesting question. The truth that it took me the longest to learn was that when God said to me, Neil, your life is not about you. Your life has nothing to do with you. It's about everyone whose life you touch and the way in which you touch it. When you learn to live your life in that way, you discover that in in the universal sense, cosmically speaking, your life is about you for an elegant reason. There's nobody else in the room. There's only one of us in the room. We are all one. And that's the biggest lesson that I learned in my conversations with God. We are all one. Even those with whom I disagree. I am one with them. And I've learned to embrace that awareness. When I've come to be aware that I'm also one with myself. Even when I disagree with myself, when I disagree with things that I've said or that I've done. Yeah, we've all we've all said things, and the moment after we said it, we wondered, why in the world did I say that?

SPEAKER_05 7:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Or or or we look back on our lives, as I have done uh frequently and ask myself, don't why in the world did I do that? I I I'll I'll confess to you 55, 60 years ago. 65 years ago, I had an affair in my first wife. Well, it wasn't a it wasn't a long-term, you know, two-year-long interest, but it was just a simple, you know, a little fling. But you know, what the hell was I thinking when I look back on it? My first wife was one of the most wonderful people you've ever wanted to meet in your life. She's gone to her eternal reward now, and she's been gone now for quite a few years. But when I think back up to time was when I realized she was one of the sweetest, most wonderful people I've ever known in my life. Why in the world would I betray her in that way? I mean, come on, Neil, grow the hell up. So I so I've I I learned that my life is not about me. It's about everyone whose life I touch and the way in which I touch it. I want to round out that story that I told you though, Luna, so that you your listeners don't feel hanging on the edge of that. When my first wife, the mother of my first two children, I have nine children, she was the the mother of my first two children. When she passed away, she was lying on the couch in my daughter's home. I was there. My daughter invited me to come over because she knew that her mom had very few minutes left. And I came over. And I said to my first wife, who was leaving the planet and knew that she was. I said, sweetheart, I'm so sorry. There's nothing that I can do or say that can erase the betrayal. I'm so so so sorry that I did what I did when I was what the hell was I thinking? I was 22 years old. And you know what my dying wife did? She reached out and took all the strength she had lying on the couch, held my hand, and she said, sweetheart, I forgave you for that 50 years ago. Yeah. Let it go. Let it go. We all make mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Yeah, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

That's the kind of woman she was that would say something like that to me in her final words.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Well, you needed that, Release. You did, you did.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yes. You needed that. But for her, for her to go to that place knowing that you know she was dying. Just demonstrated the kind of person she was all of her whole life.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah. Well, you know, men have affairs that they don't think about it. I heard someone say to me once that men only think with their little heads, they don't think with their big heads. So, you know, the men on this listening here that that that that probably had an affair either with their wife or girlfriends, they can understand what made you do it because you actually don't think. But um, but I I was listening to you on another podcast recently, and you said something about um love that it took you a long time to learn that love is not a transaction. So talk about that because that was beautiful, like and and and you know, you said that you've been through it took you until this current marriage to understand that with your current wife, and you had several of them. I'm gonna not gonna say the number, but you said you had several of them, and it took you until this last one to learn the lesson about love. Can you share that?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Well, Myrna, I'd love to. Uh I was taught as a child. I was raised in a worldwide religion. My my parents sent me to a to a school that was sponsored by the by the church. So I was taught in third grade that God's love for us is a transaction, like a trade deal between nations. In other words, you do for me what I need you to do for me, and I'll give you what you want for me to give you. And if you don't do for me what I need you to do for me, then I will not give to you what you want to get from me. And I was and and I learned that, you know, I would have put it in those words when I was nine years old, but as I grew older, I realized, oh people think that God's love is a transaction. It's an arrangement. You know, I'll give you what you want if you give me what I want. And then when I had my conversations with God, I came to understand, oh, God's love is not a transaction. God's love is unconditional, unending, and unlimited. God doesn't say I love you if God says I love you even if even if you do things that I would never prove to. I still love you. And then God taught me about pure love, which as you just mentioned in a moment ago, I finally learned all about in my most recent marriage. I've been married, I mean, three times. No, wait, no, no, I've been married four times. And so I've been no no, I'm sorry, I've been married five times. But I said, no, wait a minute, how many times have I been married? What how many times have I been married? Seven times, not seven lady friends, seven marriages with ring on their finger? Wow, okay. I'm not I'm not bragging about that. That's just another uh demonstration of how little I understood about life. But finally, I came to understand with the lady that I've been with now for the last 18 years, which for me is a record. I can't even imagine. I know, right? Being with one person for 18 years, but she's an angel. And but I've learned that I can love her, and for that matter, learn out all people the way God loves me. Without condition, without limitation. And and it's not a transaction. So I I don't have to say to my to my wife, I love you if I so now I can turn to her and say to her, I love you, sweetheart. No matter what.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

That's pure love. That's my my new understanding, my new definition of pure love. I love you no matter what. This is not a transaction.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I'm um, yes, I've been to that same place. Um, I was married several times myself. And, you know, I heard you talk about expectations. And when you go into expectations in a marriage, that's what ruins the marriage, or what, you know. Um, and you talk about um when you met your wife, how you knew you said, oh no, here we go again. And I had the same, I had the same response when I met my current husband. So we've been married for 20 years. So um, but yeah, this relationship allowed me to understand pure unconditional love to someone that's not my child. So yes, I understand. Um, and you also talk about, you know, women and mothers come close to this understanding of the unconditional love. But yeah, so that is that is that is a truth that, you know, both of us, you know, um took a long time to learn, is that yes, um loving people, even how I how I do the the the the show. I mean, I come on, you know, and I ask guests to do certain things and and a lot of them don't do it. And um, but I still come from the space of I love them. It's pure guests, you know, it's it's it's the purity of my love with this platform that I have to help people to be their best self or to share their work to the world, which is why podcasts are doing it. So even though I would like it to be a transaction, when it's not a transaction, it's okay because I'm doing what I need to do and they're doing what they need to do. So it's a good lesson that um, you know, it's not about a transaction, it is about giving without expecting anything.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

So you're telling me that as a guest on your program, it's okay with you if I don't do what you asked me to do.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Yeah. Wow. It is you're making faces. I mean, I don't like it, but it's okay. I've actually, trust me, I've been there. I it's okay. It's okay, you know. Um yeah, so we all learn, right? So it's amazing. All right, so um much of your work centers around the conversations that we have with God. But before we can hear that voice, we're often trapped by conversations with ourselves. So, how can someone recognize when the voice in their head comes from fear rather than wisdom? And I learned um a long time ago that you've got like five voices in your head, and you've got to discern which one is God or spirit or your angels, and which one is fair, or maybe your mind repeating something back to you. So, how did you how did you learn to distinguish the voices in your head?

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Well, you know, Myrna, when when I heard the voice of God, it always spoke in ways that consisted of certain energies: freedom, joy, and love. No limitation of any kind, no requirement of any kind, no necessity of any kind, just freedom, joy, and love. So when I have thoughts that go through my mind these days, if it doesn't feel like freedom, joy, and love, I simply dismiss the thought. I I I literally put it, you know how they say put it out of your mind. I literally put it out of my mind. And I refuse to allow myself to struggle with or maintain for more than a moment or two any thought that does not consist of freedom, joy, and love. And so for me, that's my that's my definition.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Yeah, so that's how you can, you know, because you're right, if it's if it's coming from fear, um, you know it's not God, right? So um, yeah, freedom, joy, and love.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

So that's that's um, you know, let me explain. And I'd like to explain why I know it's not coming from God.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

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SPEAKER_02 22:01

If it contains fear.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Because I have come to understand that I am a part of God. That I'm not separate, Myrna, from God. Neither are you, neither are any of us. That there is no such thing as separation from God. I have come to understand through my conversations with God that every soul in the universe is an individuation of divinity. We are each, if I could use a metaphor, fingers on the hands of God. So we're not identical, but we're not separate from each other. We are all one part of the same body. So when I move to a place in my life where I could embrace the notion, embrace the truth that I am connected to and one with the divine. Then I began to ask myself, then what am I doing here? If I really am, if my soul really is an individual expression of the divine, why in the world would it come to this realm of physical expression where there's so much suffering and anxiety and fear, and where there's so much negativity? There are nice things, of course. There are wonderful parts of this world, no question. But why would I come to this place where there's so much negativity? And if I really am an individual expression of God. And that caused me, Myrna, to explore what the French would call my raison d'étres. My reason for being. Why am I here? And so I I asked God that question. Please, just just tell me the rules. I'll play, I'll play this silly game called life. Just just give me the rule book. Explain to me what I'm doing here. God said, sweetheart, it's so simple. You've come to the realm of the physical. Because in that realm there is a contextual field that contains all that you are and all that you are not. When you're in heaven, when you're in the spiritual realm, there's nothing there that you are not, because all it contains is freedom, joy, and love. It really is paradise. That's why it's called heaven. But you come to the physical realm because in the physical realm there is that which you are not. There is the opposite of what you what you are. And I said to God, but but why? I get that there's the opposite of what I am, but why? Why does it have to be that way? God said, because you came to the physical realm in order to experience what you are. And in the absence of what you are not, what you are is not. And I said to I said to God, okay, would you would you please explain that to me? Because I have a very little mind here. I'm trying to understand what you're telling. God said, Okay, I'll give you a simple example. You're six feet tall, correct? I said, Yes, of course. I'm six feet tall. You would know that. You're God. God said, Great. So now you know that you're six feet tall, but do you enjoy being six feet tall? Do you like being six feet tall? Is it a nice experience? I said, yes. I've enjoyed the experience of six being six feet tall. But God said to me, What if there was nothing in the world that was not six feet tall? What if every plant? What if every tree? What if every person in the world? What if every building? What if everything in the universe was precisely six feet tall? How would you know what it's like to be six feet tall? Because you have nothing to compare it to. Only when you're in the space of what you are not, you're not five foot seven. Only then would you be able to experience what you are. So therefore, I said, Well, okay, that's a very interesting analogy. God said, let's not move it up a notch. Supposing that you say that you are the light, that you choose to be the light of the world. Some people have made that decision. Or at least in a moment, they choose to be the person who brings light to the moment. God said, But if there is no darkness, if all there is is light, you can't experience yourself as the light because you're like a candle in the sun. You're there all right with a 50 billion cajillion other candles, but you can't express yourself unless the darkness darkness, yes. Therefore, God said to me, Therefore, Neil, raise not your fist to heaven and curse the darkness not, but be a light unto the darkness.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

That you might know who that too. Yes, that you might know who you really are, and all those whose lives you touch might know who they really are.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

I love that. I love that. Be the light unto the darkness. I love that. It's almost similar to one of the scriptures that I hold dear, and it says, um, be the light on the hill.

unknown 28:02

Right?

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yes. Voila.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Or as Americans say, bingo.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Bingo. Yeah, yeah, that was one of my scriptures. Yes, be the light on the hill. I I adopted that as one of mine. All right. So that was good. That was that was good. Um, I like that. That um, you know, a lot of times people say, like the the gurus, the Indian gurus that I follow talk about um, you know, we are spiritual beings having a human experience, and that we're here so that you know God can experience through our central nervous system. But you know, that is uh a great um, you know, a great take on and why we're here and to be, you know, who we're not and to understand that yeah, differences is what makes us enjoy this lifetime because you're right, everybody is the same, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:03

It's what's called the law of opposites.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yes, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

No, the moment God said to me, Neil, the moment you declare yourself to be anything, you know, abundant, joyful, patient, understanding. The moment you declare yourself to be anything, everything unlike it will come into your awareness. It's been there all the time, but you be suddenly become aware of it, aware of it, right? Because you have made a decision about who you are. So do not blame and do not become angry when the law of opposites plays its effect in your life. Bless, bless, bless those who would do you evil, and be good to those who who would not do good to you.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

And if a man asks you for your coat, quoting Jesus, that's nice, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

And when a man asks you to walk one mile with him, walk two, go with him, Twain. It's really quite simple, or as as that man you just talked about a moment ago said around 2,000 years ago. Neil, it's very simple. Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Unto you, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

It's really quite simple.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Yes, yes, yes, it is. It's very simple. And I heard you say something on the podcast that I was listening to that, you know, you knew what to do. You had the key, but we don't always we don't always do it. And that's exactly it. We, the Bible, you know, is the blueprint and the Quran and all these religious books are the blueprint, but very few people walk the walk. They know it's there, but they don't walk the walk.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

So well, I think part of the problem is that many of the books that you've mentioned, many of the world's religions, and by the way, there are 4,223 religions now being practiced on the face of the earth. I didn't make that number up. You can Google it and just type in the question how many religions are now being practiced on earth? 4,223 at last count. Well, now the problem is that the majority of those religions tell us that in fact God's love is a transaction, it's conditional. I love you if you know you have to wear certain kind of clothing. And you can't wear certain other kind of clothes, you can't eat a certain kind of food, and if you eat that food, it's not kosher, you're not supposed to do that, and and you're not supposed to say certain words, you know, words that start with the letter F would be would be a good example. Like I so I can't even use the word fun. You see, it also starts with the letter F. God says, Oh, come on, Neil, come on. So we've been taught so many things by our world's religions that it's difficult for us to embrace some of the wonderful blessings that all of the world's religions have brought to us, and that's the challenge. You know, I want to make it very clear to anybody who's listening to this program right now. I'm not against religion. I think the world's religions have brought us, I want to repeat, great wisdom and wonderful insight. But I think there's a challenge with most of the world's religions. I think they're incomplete. I think there's more to the story. I think there's more going on here than meets the eye. And I think I think there's more to the story, and the more that there is, is that God says to us, not I love you if, but I love you even if.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

And the way they do that is to say that, you know, if you don't do these things, you're not gonna go to heaven. Or you're, you know, I think Islam talks about the fact that you're gonna be reincarnated until you get it right. So I mean, it's it's probably wrong for them to be saying that, you know, God, um uh God only loves you if you do these things. But I think that they had a purpose for putting it that way. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 34:31

I I agree with you. The purpose was to provide certain guidelines, certain understandings, a certain level of awareness, you know, a certain, there's no question. I we we both agree on that. And so the world's great religions have brought us that benefit. But I'm I'm sorry to have to repeat myself, but most of the world's religions teach us that if you don't do it their way specifically, for instance, many Christian denominations, I don't know about yours, and I'm not asking you about yours, but many Christian denominations teach that if you're not a Christian, if you don't believe in Christ as your personal savior, you're not going to heaven. That means that 2.5 billion Muslims cannot get into paradise. That means that several billion Jews cannot get into paradise. That means if you're a Buddhist, you cannot get, in fact, if you're anything but a Christian, which is the one true religion, and if you're not following that religion, you're locked out of heaven. That's the God we're being taught about by certain Christian denominations. And when I hear people talk about that, I keep saying, I mean, really? You really believe that God says to a person who is kind, generous, compassionate, forgiving, sensitive, and incredibly loving, but happens to be a Muslim, sorry, you can't come in. You not not not, it's worse than you can't come into heaven. You're actually going to hell.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

They're going to hell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

I mean, this is the God that we're being invited to believe in. No wonder we have a hard time believing in a love that has no condition.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

We've been taught about it from our religions.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Yeah. Well, that was exactly the question that you stumped me on the last time we were here. So I'm not going to get sucked into it again. But I will say that the reason the Christian religion says that, it is because Jesus said it in the Bible that I'm the way, the truth, and the light.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

And yes, but he didn't say but he didn't say I'm the only way.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Okay.

unknown 37:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

He said I'm the way, the truth, and the light. And that's true.

unknown 37:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

That's that would be like that would be like me saying, you know, uh, I have a good diet. Follow my diet. And and if you if you if you follow the diet that I, you know, that I follow, you will be healthy in your body. But it's not the only way.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

That's good. That's good. That's good. All right. So yes, you're very right. You're very right. You know, um, a lot of the religions practice exclusion, and exclusion is not good, right? And and they're starting to become more inclusive too. Because, you know, if we want to go down this path, um, and I'm not even sure if I should bring it up, but since I'm going down this path, I'll continue. You know, um the Bible also talks about um homosexuality and how homosexuality is an abomination to God. And for a long time, you know, the homosexuals weren't invited into church and now they're starting to invite them because it was exclusions. You're saying if you're homosexual, you can't go to heaven, and now they're, you know, that pastors are bringing them in. Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

It's worse than that. Some religions teach that the Bible says that if you cannot see, if you're blind, a blind person is not allowed to enter into the house of the Lord. It's right there in the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Okay, I don't know that one.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

The Bible talks about how how it's wrong to plant certain crops, the same kinds of crops in the same field, in the same growing season. There are a lot of things that the Bible declares to be true. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Of course, of course. It is okay, all right, right. Yes, men put that in there. Okay, all right. So, well, you know, which is why God has a conduit or channel like yourselves, and why he has allowed your work to touch millions, because you are changing the conversation and the paradigm. So good work. I mean, I think it's an incredible thing that, yes, that God talks to you. You're like his modern-day Moses.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Well, God talks to everyone. I want to make that very clear because I I don't want anyone to think that I imagine myself to be this special, special person to whom God talks. God made it very clear to me because I did, I asked God, I said, God, why me? God said, Oh, Neil, sweetheart, I talk to everyone all the time. It's true. It's true. The question isn't to whom do I talk, the question is who listens.

SPEAKER_06 39:42

Who listens?

SPEAKER_02 39:43

And even some people who imagine that they are hearing from a source outside of themselves, they'll call it, you know, women's intuition or a psychic hit or an epiphany. I had an epiphany or I had a brilliant idea in the shower stall yesterday, you know, whatever. They don't they wouldn't say I had a conversation with God.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Because people think you're crazy.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Yeah, they don't want to be marginalized. I called it exactly what it felt like.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Yes, conversation with God. Yes. I have those conversations too, but I never say it's from God. I say it's my angel or my higher self or whatever, but I never say that, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Voila.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Voila, right? Right. And I never talk back, I just listen.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Well, I I wound up talking back. I wound up asking God questions. You know, when when what God said to me didn't make sense, I said simply said, that doesn't make sense to me. And then God would say to me, let me explain it to you more deeply and see if it can make sense. And ultimately, everything that I was told in the 30, in the in the nine books and the and the uh 3,000 pages of the conversations with God dialogue series, right? Ultimately, everything I was told began to make sense to me. I understood.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

I didn't know there were nine books. I only I read three of them. I thought there were so you must have written more after.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yes, there are nine dialogue books in the conversations with God series. Book one, two, and three, and then friendship with God and communion with God. Okay, and my favorite of the dialogue books, the book called Home with God in a Life That Never Ends, which talks about what happens after we do the thing that we imagine is death. We never die, of course. We simply have a change of address.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

We never die. I gotta get those then. Like I said, I got one, I I've read one through three. But yes, I have to um I like the favorite one because everybody is so curious about that. And I have a questionnaire on death in a minute, so we'll get to that. But um, yes, everybody's curious about that. So God talked to you about that too?

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yes, she did. She talked to me about every imaginable topic because I asked questions. I asked about that. I said, you know, what happens after we die? Is it true that there's life after death? You know, and God said, I wouldn't say there's life after death, I would say there's no such thing as death. Death does not exist. You simply have a change of address.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Hmm.

unknown 42:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. All right. See, I'm loving our conversation. All right. So, you know, I've made a lot of um, I I I interview a lot of guests on trauma, and I think that I'm starting to have a trauma following because of course I also had childhood trauma, which I'm hearing now that it I'm not unique, that there it's, I'm not sure if there's a statistic, but there's a lot of people, adults that have childhood trauma. So many of my listeners have experienced trauma, illness, betrayal, profound loss. Um, from your spiritual perspective, what is the purpose of suffering? What did God tell you about suffering? Is it something to transcend, something to embrace, or something else entirely? So one person has the fact that, okay, sit with it, the Buddha says suffering is in the mind. You know, what does God say about suffering?

SPEAKER_02 43:32

God says that suffering is simply your announcement that what is happening or what has happened should not be happening. When you agree with what is happening and don't try to convince yourself that it should not be happening, then you don't suffer. You may experience pain, emotional pain or physical pain, but you don't suffer from the pain. And I said to God, okay, you lost me again. And help me understand. God said, Neil, let me give you an example. You'd been in the room when your wife gave birth to your children. Not just one child, but triplets, one after the other, over a period of three and a half or four hours of labor. Did she experience any discomfort? Any pain? I said, Oh my gosh, of course she did. Every one of the births was painful. She said, If if if the births were painful, did she suffer? I said, Well, no, I didn't experience her suffering. Frankly, I experienced her with tears of joy in the midst of the pain.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Because she realized that the pain had a purpose. And the purpose was to give birth to new life. So she was okay with the pain. It wasn't less painful, but it was not suffering. She did not have to suffer through it. She simply said, I understand. And when, you know, when I was given that information, I suddenly understood the difference between pain and suffering. Suffering is your announcement that what is occurring should not be occurring. But your awareness is your announcement that you see everything in life, every moment, as an opportunity for you to announce and declare, to express and fulfill, to become and experience who you really are.

SPEAKER_03 45:51

Yeah, that is that is good. It's true. And those who cause pain and people can suffer for a long time and it's in their minds when, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

What I call unfinished business.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

But we have to have to wait a way to complete our unfinished business. Because the people who cause pain or you know, negative experiences in another, they don't even know what they're doing. They have no concept of what they're producing in the experience of another. That guy you mentioned who lived 2,000 years ago to bring him up again, said that as they were killing him.

SPEAKER_05 46:35

Yeah, forgive him.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

When they put the the the the spear into his side as he was dying on the cross, his words were unforgettable, and we haven't forgotten them after 2,000 years. Father, forgive them.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

They know not what not what they do. Because there is a purpose to his pain. I love this, Neil. I love this. Yes, this is transcending. So that's what you're doing. Something to transcend, right? Yes. So the answers to that, embrace it too. Yes, that is great.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

So what God said to me, what God said to me was, Neil, what you resist persists. Yes. But what you look at disappears. That is, it ceases to have its illusory form.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Hmm. All right. Well, I'm gonna circle back with a question here. So we talked about trauma. Trauma, childhood trauma is what somebody did to you. How would you um what is the purpose of that suffering?

SPEAKER_02 47:50

There is no suffering when we understand that it was an opportunity for us to decide who we are and who we choose to be. But we can't, we couldn't get to that level of awareness, Myrna, if we didn't agree with ourselves that this is not who I am. Uh guys, I'm not my body, Neil said, pointing to his body. I'm not my mind, Neil said, pointing to his brain. This is not who I am. These are simply tools, pieces of equipment being used by who I really am, my soul. As devices that allow me to express and to experience my true identity. So anything that happens to my body is something that I can use as an opportunity to decide and declare who I really am. Now I'm gonna say something that's gonna be a little bit off the map for most people, but the energy that I have come to use, even when unwelcome events occur in my life, is gratitude. I heard that I heard that gratitude, thank you, God, for bringing me another opportunity to announce and declare, express and fulfill, become an experience, an opportunity to demonstrate who I really am. And the more I step into that expression, the expression of gratitude, the less I can experience myself as being a victim. Because you know, for most of my life, I allowed myself to be the hero and the victim of the same story simultaneously.

SPEAKER_06 49:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

No, no, no, you don't understand. I'm a hero because this is I did what I had to do, but I'm a victim because I had to do it.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Someone did it to you. Yeah, someone did it to you. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

So, but God said to me, Neil, choose either you're a victim or you're a hero. But I'm not gonna let you be both. Because so I decided, okay, I'm no longer going to experience myself as being the victim of my own storm, even though I've had plenty of experiences in life where I felt victimized. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

That touches me. In my book, I talk about being um a player in the card game and working with the cards that you were dealt and not becoming a victim, right? Because a victim says, oh, these are cards that I've been dealt, and you know, I gotta be, I gotta suffer and I gotta be this person because of what the cards are. But if you're a player, then you I love that, but I love hero better because yes, you're a player, you're a hero, then you do something with, and yes, gratitude, um, you know, does something to yourselves, it does something to your brain, your mind, your energy, all those things. And but yes, it's a tall glass of water to tell someone to be grateful for their pain or their suffering or their trauma, but that's what happens when they get to the other side, that you've got to be grateful for it. So, yes, it's not it's not off the wall. It is actually what you've got to do, but it's it's a process, and you've got to go through the tunnel before you get on the other side and be, you know, be grateful or become the hero. There's work to be done. So thank you for that, Neil. Appreciate that. All right, so let's talk about transformation, which is what this show is about. Um, do you believe that people truly reinvent themselves, or do they simply remember who they always were beneath the conditioning, the expectations, and the fear? So there's two levels of thought here. One is that people really never transform, they just change for a little bit and then they go back to themselves. So, or I mean, I heard you say something very beautiful earlier is that we have to, not in this show, on the on the podcast that I was listening to, you talk about we have to let people return to themselves or understand who they are and give them the opportunity to go back to themselves. So talk about that in a form of is there transformation or remembering?

SPEAKER_02 52:39

I don't I don't think it's either or. I think it's both and. I think we remember, and as a result of remembering, we transform ourselves, or at least we're invited to do so. So I don't think it's one or the other. To me, to me, it to me, um I have an opportunity in each moment of my life where events are unwelcome to remember who I really am. And then I have an opportunity to transform who I really am because of what I've remembered. And I love to use the word remember in a different way. To remember, that is to become a member once again of the body of God and to become a member once again of the wholeness of the one experience of the singularity, to be a singularization of the singularity and to remember that I'm not separate from anyone, not even am I separate from those who do things to me that are unwelcome.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Right, right, yes, yes, yes, very true. I like that. So that leads right into my question that I have here. If you would leave our listeners with one thought, one sentence that they can carry with them tomorrow morning when life becomes difficult, what would you want them to remember?

SPEAKER_02 54:20

There's more going on here than meets the eye. True. That's what I would want them to remember. My friends, there's more going on here than meets the eye. If you think that your life is just about, you know, get the guy or get the girl, get the job, get the house, get the better job, get the better house, get the better spouse, you know, get whatever. If you think that your life is all about what you can get, then you have misunderstood completely what you're doing here. There's more going on here than meets the eye. Your life is not about what you can get, it's about what you can give. And when you really experience that, your life becomes a golden experience when it's focused on what you can give. Even when you are being damaged or hurt, what can you give in that moment? Can you give compassion? Can you give understanding? Can you give patience? Can you give a level of awareness? Can you give love to those who are hurting you? Can you love them enough to ask God to forgive them even as they're killing you? There was a guy who did that.

SPEAKER_05 55:51

I know, I know, I know the guy.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

Yeah, and so and he wasn't the only one. There have been other people who have walked the planet.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Yeah, but he stands out because most people can't do what he did. But yes, anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

And unless they can, most people can't unless they can, until they can, right? And more and more people are finding that they can. True, true, because even this one man said to his disciples when they saw the way he was living his life, he turned to those who were following him everywhere, and he said to them, Why are you so amazed? These things and more shall you do also?

SPEAKER_06 56:48

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

I quote this guy pretty regularly because I listen to what he had to say. I don't listen to only a portion of what he had to say, I listen to all that he had to say. Why are you so amazed? These things and more shall you do also?

unknown 57:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

Oh ye of little faith.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Amazing, amazing, amazing. I love it, I love it, I love it. All right. So tell us about your book, Letters to a Young Seeker, Departing Thoughts from an Elder. Why did you write it? And what do you want readers to take away with it? And also, um, you know, from the introduction, the book is a letter and then poetry from your wife. Why did you choose that kind of format? And what are you hoping that the readers will take away from that format?

SPEAKER_02 57:42

Well, my wife suggested the book. My wife is an award-winning published poet long before you know uh she was involved with me. So I I didn't take her to that level. But she had a dream, she told me about a year and a half or two ago. She said, You know, honey, I had a dream last night about the German poet Rilke, who who um wound up writing uh letters to a young poet. Because a young poet had written to Rilke and said, Tell me how I can be a poet as good as you are. What do I need to know to be as good as you are? And Rilke wrote back, and it became, and the young man published the letters that Rilke wrote back, and the book was called Letters to a Young Poet. Very famous book in Germany. And my wife looked at me and she said, Sweetheart, why don't you write letters to a young seeker? Nice. And let it be everything you wish someone had said to you when you were 23. Are there any things that you've learned in your conversations with God? My wife asked me that you wished you had known when you were 23 or 33 or even 40s. I said, yes, many, many things. God said, put them down in writing. So that a person who is 23 can pick up this book and not have to go through the 30 years you went through to get to this level of clarity. And so I said, you know what? I am going to do that. And I sat down and I wrote 21 letters, each of which contained an important and powerful message that I wish someone had told me when I was 23 years old.

SPEAKER_03 59:52

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

Not the least of which was Neil. There's more going on here than HDI.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:00

H the eye.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

And also one of the other most powerful statements in that book came in letters to a young seeker, letter number 16. Neil. Never forgive anyone for anything. God will never forgive you for anything. Because God doesn't need to forgive you because you can't possibly hurt, damage, injure, anger, or frustrate God in any way. Little old you do not have the power to make God angry. God simply understands why a person at your level of evolution do or say the things that you're doing or saying. That doesn't mean that God condones it or approves of it, but God does understand it. So, Neil, in letter number 16, tell young people understanding replaces forgiveness in the mind of the master.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

I love it. I love it. Yeah, when I was listening to you on the podcast, you talked about that and you give an example of a two-year-old child, you know, spilling milk, and the grandparents don't say, I forgive you, they say they understand that why it was spilled. So that was that was a pretty good um uh you know analogy to show the difference between forgiveness and an understanding. So yeah, so that's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

Even when even when a two-year-old deliberately, not not accidentally spills the milk, but even when a two-year-old child deliberately misbehaves at the dinner table in order to get attention. Even then, not I love you if I love you even.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:52

Even because we do, actually, we do. That's not a stress, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:57

Even if you're misbehaving in order to get attention. So we say to the child, I understand. And we don't say to the child, go to your room for the next 26 years. We don't punish the child with uh with a with uh an outcome that's far worse than the offense. So the idea that God would send us to a place called hell for eternity because during one lifetime, and by the way, one lifetime compared to eternity would be like one second on a human clock compared to 50 years.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:41

Why would God say, no, no, you don't understand, you did the wrong thing, you belong to the wrong religion, or you did the wrong thing, you stole somebody's money, or you have you're going to hell for eternity, for the rest of all time, because of something you did for one nanosecond of the eternal life. So, but we have to believe in a God that bases her love on fear. You know what I was told when I was nine years old? I may have told you this before, but when I was told when I was nine years old, I was told in my third grade class, the priest came in once a week to teach us catechism.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:25

You told me that in the last one. But go ahead, tell our new listeners, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

And the priest was telling us about mortal sin and venial sin. And I said, God, and he was saying mortal sin is the worst kind of offense that you can commit in God's eyes. And if you die with that sin on your soul, you go straight to hell. And I said, Father, raise me a little nine-year-old hand. Can you give me an example of a mortal sin? He said, Certainly, my son. And I thought he was going to tell me about, you know, murdering someone or perhaps stealing someone's life savings or whatever. He said, if you miss mass on Sunday, it's a mortal sin. Wow.

unknown 1:04:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:08

And my nine-year-old mind is going, wait a minute, if I miss mass one Sunday of my life, yeah, and I don't get to confession before I die, so I tried to trip the father up. I tried to trip up the priest. I said, Father, what if I'm on the way to confession? And I want to confess my sin and be forgiven, but I get hit by a car on the way to church, just outside the church front door, and I die on the driveway into the church. Surely God would forgive me, knowing that I was coming to church to seek forgiveness. And the priest looked at me and he said, I'm sorry, my child. But if you die with that sin on your soul, you will go straight to hell. Everlasting damnation for missing church one Sunday of your life. Talk about filling the pews with fear.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:06

Yeah, yeah. They do that. They do that. Yes, and they know, like Jesus says, they know not what they do. Because yes, he is He is He is putting that into your young, malleable lie mind. And you never know what can spew from that, right? Because it's inception.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

Yeah, if it's good enough for God, that's good enough for me. I can do the same behavior with other people. Yeah, I can treat other people the way God treats me. Either give me what I want, or eternal damnation. Or I'll be hell in your life.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:43

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:44

So, you know, we we we've completely misunderstood who we are, why we're here, what God is, and what God wants. I wrote a book a few years ago titled What God Wants. And chapter nine of that book. Includes everything that God wants. It's 26 blank pages.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:09

Yeah, I was just one of the words about that. I'm thinking, I thought you said it's not transactional. God doesn't need anything from us. Good job. Good job, right? It's a play on the words. I love it. I love it. All right. Well, I had a question here about debt, but uh we're out of time. So um uh tell our listeners how they can get in touch with all your works. I'm sure you've got them all on a website. We all know that your books are on Amazon. So, what is your website? If you're in social media, what is your social media um uh handle so they can they can communicate with you after this conversation?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Just go to neeldonaldwalsh.com. It's really quite simple. And if you don't know how to spell my name, just type in in the Google search engine. And if you type it the wrong way, it the Google search engine will correct you. But it's N-E-A-L-E Donald Walsh, W-A-L-S-C-H, neildonaldwalsh.com. And I'm right there. I check my email four times a day.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Nice, yes. Okay, all right, so that's amazing. Um, Neil, this was such a beautiful conversation. I love it. Um, so Neil reminds us that transformation isn't about becoming someone new, it's about remembering who you truly are beneath the fear, the judgment, and the conditioning. His latest book, Letters to Young Seeker, offer timeless reflections that invite us to slow down, listen deeply, and live with greater intention. So if this conversation resonated with you, be sure to pick up a copy of the book and share this episode with someone who may need to hear these words of encouragement. And there is a lot of great nuggets here. In the show notes, I'll also link out to my previous conversation with Neil because there's a whole bunch of other good nuggets on that one, too. So every share helps us bring up more conversations that transform our lives. So, Neil, as we wrap up, any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

The only final thought I would have is choose to use every moment of your life as an announcement of who you are and choose to know who you are as an individuation of divinity.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:44

Yes, so beautiful, so beautiful, yes, because you know what? Most of us do not know who we are, we just go with the flow every day. We wake up and we go onto the hamster wheel, we go to work, we come home.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

We're living a we're living a case of mistaken identity.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Yeah, yeah, that too, that too, yes, yes, yes, and we're never really conscious, right? So, yes, I love the idea behind your book, um, Letters to a Young Seeker. That is amazing, yes, because you go pick up that book and it feels like your mind is blown because of the fact that, you know, all this conversations and questions that Neil has had with God and all, you know, his life story before he met God and the conversations and and after that, it's all put together in one concise book that you can learn from. And I will definitely pick up a copy of it and give it to my children because they're young seekers as well. So thank you, Neil, for being on the show. Thank you, Transformers, for tuning in um to this week's episode. Remember to share and review and comment if you have something you want to comment on on what we talked about today. Until next time, thank you again for tuning in. Thank you, Neil. Namaste.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:13

You're very welcome. God bless. God bless.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:20

Hang on.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:23

Never get this button to click.