SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to the Transform Your Mind Radio Hour and Podcast, a show about transformation, mindset transformation. This is Life Coach Ernie Young, and in my book, Out of the Snare, a story of hope and encouragement, I share my journey of being born in poverty in Guyana to have an abundance in America. And I did it by changing my mindset. Let's go do it. Each week, I bring you guests for one-on-one coaching session to help you change your mindset and transform your life. And sitting in the guest chair today is Jessica Bong. Jessica and I are going to be talking on the topic of how to break the cycle of your attachment style. Welcome, Jessica.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yes, I um uh you're very welcome. You know, I love talking about relationships and I love um having guests on the show that give us an insights on relationships because it is our most complex thing. Um, you know, relationships is where um, according to statistics, gives us 85% of our happiness. So we're gonna get into some of um some relationship issues and and how we can um and how we can work with that. But before we do that, let me give you a short bio on Jessica. Jessica Baum is the founder of the Relationship Institute of Palm Beach, a group practice providing couples therapy, family counseling, and addiction therapy in South Florida since 2016. As a therapist for over 10 years, Jessica has helped thousands of clients with her unique approach to healing, the self-pull method. Jessica's work is focused on developing a meaningful connection with oneself and in understanding your own core patterns so that we can better understand how we relate in our relationships. Without a meaningful connection to oneself and others, we find ourselves feeling isolated. Jessica opened a sister company, Be Selfful, which can be found at beselfful.com that offers online coaching with a team of experts and courses worldwide. Jessica was born and raised in Manhattan, but she now lives in Palm Beach, Florida. So she's a Floridian like me. As we were talking, uh, you know, we're um forward recording, we're both enjoying the sunshine, but apparently there's a storm coming. We're in that season, right? Okay. All right, Jessica. So as we start off, I always like to get a foundation so the listeners can understand your backstory. So, what was your journey to becoming a couples therapist? Tell me there's a juicy story there.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Well, definitely through my own interpersonal struggles for sure. Um, you know, I did a session around something called Imago therapy. So it's I'm a psychotherapist and I went to a psychotherapist and I got um I worked with imagot therapy, which means image. And through that work of my own personal work, I started to develop an understanding of my own attachment um wounds and how I was relating in relationship. And that definitely um made me want to become a certified Imago specialist. So that's one of the things that I um am passionate about. And then I started working with um like substance abuse centers, but I started treating families. So a lot of codependency, a lot of system issues. And I treated a lot of couples in my private practice. So I started to see these unconscious dances and these wounds play out, and you know, with imagot therapy, there's a lot of trauma that comes up in relationship, you know, and so our wounds show up. So I was starting to see this happen over and over again, and I was starting to help it in big ways in my office and see really powerful um transformations come up in relationships. And so through my own journey and through my private practice, um, yeah, I just I wanted to get this information out into the world. I also, in my early 20s, identified as a codependent, read every book on codependency I could get my hands on. And it wasn't until I discovered attachment theory later on and went to school and studied it for years that I really understood that, you know, codependency is a product of attachment wounds and how we relate and stay in connection because that's our biological imperative. So it was a combination of my own work and working with family systems and then working with couples that led me to want to write this book.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Well, that's amazing. You unpacked a lot of stuff there. Um, one amago therapy. I've never heard of it. How do you spell that?

SPEAKER_03 5:23

It's I-M-A-G-O, and I highly recommend amago therapy or emotionally focused couples care counseling. Those are two modalities that you have to be extra certified in, and they really work with the energy and dynamics in relationships. And, you know, some of the core principles is that we attract partners who have primary, um, our primary, they have positive and negative traits of our primary caregivers. So when we're in relationship and we're past the honeymoon phase, you know, protections show up and the wounds start to show up. And all of a sudden we're having sensations and wounds, kind of these patterns showing up in our most romantic relationships, and we're all kind of confused. But this is actually supposed to happen because what happened to us when we were younger is subconscious, and then now we're as adults and we're partnering up, all of that actually gets reenacted and hopefully can then get healed in relationship with two conscious people doing the work. So that's why I really loved Amago. It's not about a therapist sitting in a room telling you what to do. It's actually led this beautiful dance between the couple where the therapist is outside leading deep dialogue to help each person see where their wounding is in such a beautiful way. It's experiential, so it's a process you go through. And um, it just impacted me very deeply that I decided to kind of get certified and trained in it myself. And I've had a lot of success with it.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Well, it sounds beautiful, and you know, I am I've never heard of it, and I've been interviewing on the show for what, seven years now? And I've interviewed a lot of therapists, and nobody has ever said that word before. So that's amazing. But of course, um, you know, I've had dozens by now of um interviews on trauma and what you're so when you're talking about wounds, are you talking about traumatic wounds or are you talking about um well, I guess everything is trauma because even if you're abandoned um or you were abused, it still is in the trauma bucket, right? So is that what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Yeah, so I mean, really, I'm talking about developmental trauma. And so trauma has a big word, and if you're listening, you might be like, I have no trauma. But the truth is our earliest experiences, even though they might not appear like trauma, how we relate to our primary caregiver, how rupture and repair happened, what those early interactions are, and through our developmental process, shape the lens in which we, you know, come out into the world. And not only that, they shape our physical body, they shape our nervous system. Um, so there's a lot of impact that happens when we're young that we don't even realize it until we get intimate and close with another in our adult years. And so that's essentially attachment theory. But yeah, it's adaptations, how we adapted when we were really small to stay in connection is or keep ourselves safe is usually how we will adapt in our romantic relationships when things get a little bumpy.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Okay, all right. So I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one, and I'm pretty sure our listeners are too. So, I mean, we're gonna get into um the attachment style in a minute, but I wanna I wanna unpack this one. So let's say, for example, that um because I know that a lot of our stuff is formed before we're seven years old. So let's say that our parents divorced when we were um young, maybe under 10 or something, and um our dad was in there or mom was in there or something, and then we get married. So help me unpack how that transfers into a couple's relationship. Yeah, I mean it's or another one. If you don't like that example, give me one because I want it, I want to make a connection.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Yeah, I think that you know, when you're in relationship, you know, how you respond and react to pain, intimacy, and abandonment, all like if you're listening, it's you know, like, okay, I have a fear of abandonment, or I need to stay close in my relationship, or I'm a people pleaser, or the other way is I'm super independent, I need to be walled off, I need to be on my own. Those are protective strategies. And so when you're younger, you know, a lot of different events can happen, usually even younger than that. And in when we're talking about co-regulation with our primary caregiver, we're talking uh about infant um coupling almost. But, you know, a traumatic event like a divorce or something could rupture something inside of you that make relationships unsafe or make you feel like connection is always there and then it disappears and could create a fear of, you know, I don't have certainty in some of my belief systems anymore. And that could create a felt sensation inside your body that could lead to fear later on because now you're what you kind of built your foundation on is a little bit rocked. But I wouldn't say trauma is not always an external event. Trauma is also a covert type of relationship that we have with our primary caregivers. Were they attentive? With did they see us? Did they allow us to express feelings? Did we have conflict? Did we have conflict resolution? Did we feel safe with them all the time? There's so many layers to how we relate to one of them or both of them, and we intake in our primary caregivers. And those late ways of relating is what shows up later in our in our marriages or in our most our deepest bonds.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Okay, all right. So I'm getting that now. All right, so yeah, so um and it shows up as dysfunction in our relationships, or it shows up as you know, unhappiness or something. And so then they come to you and you are able to, or a therapist, like yeah, you're certified for this now, but they come to you and how do you how do you uh try to make them whole? What is what is the process? Understanding it? Is it just clarity? Or do they have to like you know, they say that you know, we're all we're the program of our lives has already been written. And in order to erase that program, you got to rewrite it.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

So is that how you kind of do it? Well, they're already whole when they get to me. And usually what happens is I have them engage in this type of psychotherapy and they start to say see that their behaviors actually make sense. And their behaviors make sense given their history. And so when your partner is doing something that's really upsetting you by connecting that internal upset to a time that happened earlier and starting to integrate it back into time and starting to make deeper connections. Okay, it's not just that he missed date night or she didn't return a text. There's a sense of fear around disconnection, or there's a sense of fear around being smothered. This feels familiar for me. When did you feel this before? How old were you when you felt this? You can start to see that there's so much more happening in the present moment that's not actually about the present moment. And when couples can start to see the deepening or see deeper into each other, not only do they build intimacy, but there's a there's a rupture, there's a repair. It's not that behaviors even change overnight, but now we start to understand that these behaviors are usually protections or strategies to stay in connection or keep themselves safe from a nervous system point of view. And I talk about the nervous system a lot in the book because we're really walking automatic nervous systems. And often that's um driving a lot of our behaviors in our relationship. And whether it's a fear of intimacy, I need to pull away, or fear of abandonment, I need to run towards. There's a whole slew of behaviors that go along with that that actually makes sense when you start to understand where the root of that comes from.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, you know, finding out who you are, finding out what, you know, what your patterns are, what your subconscious patterns are. I mean, like I said, I talked to a lot of people on the show that we, you know, all coaches are are are are working from that foundation. Because yeah, so this is just a a different spin that I haven't heard before, which is beautiful and it sounds like um like something that um is you know is very rewarding because you know, we all jump from one relationship to the next, thinking that there's something wrong with that person. But then if we take we look closer, we'll find that you know, maybe the reason that we're jumping from one relationship to the next is because it's of our wounds, as we're gonna call it here, of our wounds. And and and and we keep thinking it's the other person, but once we find out, you know, where it's coming from or what, you know, what like you're saying, um uh what word affair is, then that's that is really great. And you know, a lot of people don't want to do the work, they just say, hey, you know, divorce is there, let's just get it. Or, you know, let's just if there's not Mary, you know, just leave. But um I'm I'm I'm so grateful for the industry right now where um you know people are doing the work in order to heal themselves. So that's great. So um now one of the things that um we want to talk about here today specifically is our attachment style. And and when I read that word, I am thinking that um, you know, we have had like men and women seem to pick the same type of partner, whether, you know, for women's per se, you know, they usually end up in, you know, uh a relationship where maybe the man is abusive, or a relationship where, you know, um uh they're abandoned, but they seem to have these group attachments. So I think that's probably where you're going, right? So um, but now you're labeling them in it an attachment style. So tell us about that. This episode is sponsored by Young and Profitin Podcast with Halla Taha. Looking for a new riveting and informative podcast? Well, look no further. Check out Young and Profitin hosted by Halla Taha. Young and Profiting Podcast is all about listening, learning, inspiring, and profiting. Each week, Halla investigates a new self-improvement topic and interviews the brightest minds in the world who are experts on that topic. A good life comes from good choices, but good choices come from experience. Hala interviews the likes of many entrepreneurs and experts in their field. One of her most notable episodes was John Assarath on Training Your Brain. Hala Taha knows a thing or two about the entrepreneurial spirit. She is the CEO of Yap Media and one of the brightest influencers on LinkedIn with over 175,000 followers. She was also featured on the January 2021 cover on Podcast Magazine, where she was referred to as the podcasting princess. She has also founded Yap Media Network, a network that specializes in the growth and monetization of podcast brands across podcasts, social media, YouTube, and livestream events. Yap subject matter ranges from improving your mentality, how to gain influence, the art of healing through your mind, and more. Subscribe to Yap, Young and Profitin Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast and level up your life. This episode is being sponsored by Bumbus. Bumbus's mission is simple. Make the most comfortable clothes ever and match every item sold with an equal item donated. So when you buy Bombus, you're also given to someone in need. Bombus designed your socks, shirts, and underwear to be the clothes you can't wait to put on every day. Everything they make is soft, seamless, tagless, and has a cozy feel. Bombus nose shows socks are designed for comfort while being specifically engineered to never fall down. So let your ankles be free to soak up the sunlight. The t-shirts are made with tauntful design features like invisible seams, soft fabrics, and a perfect weight so they just hang right. Bombus underwear is so breathable and fits so well, it feels like you're wearing nothing at all. In a good way, of course. And did you know socks, underwear, and t-shirts are the three most requested clothing items at homeless shelters? That's why Bumbus donates one for every item you buy. So far, Bumbus customers like you have donated over 50 million items of essential clothing. Go to bumbus.com and use code TRANSF for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S dot com backslash transform and use code Transform at checkout.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Yeah, so there's um attachment style is a category, but they're really embedded patterns that we form in our nervous system early on. And there's four traditional attachment styles categories. There's secure, and that's someone who has grown up with an inherent sense of trust, doesn't struggle with intimacy or feels okay being alone, and they and they um they really trust, they have an inherent trust, and and they've really are secure within themselves. And the other three um styles are insecure. So there's anxious, which is the one I wrote my book on, and then there's avoidant, and there's fearful avoidant. And so anxious people tend to have gotten inconsistency in their parenting. So they um there's also a heightened anxiety in them, like a hypervigilance. So we we actually mirror our mother's brain and nervous system when we're developing. And if if our primary caregiver wasn't consistent enough, we're always kind of waiting for the shoe to drop. Um, there's a sense that connection isn't gonna stay the same and I gotta keep my partner happy, or I have to bend over backwards. We'll we'll track the body of another. Um, and we'll tend to self-abandon our own body as a way to survive. I mean, it's actually how we learn to survive and stay in connection in our, you know, in our earliest relationships. Um, avoidant attachment is really someone who didn't get emotional needs met well and learned to kind of rely a little bit more on their own and they didn't they become more independent. They tend to be people who are really focused on career, uh, really left mode people who are successful and they are not as dependent. They don't need as much connection. Um, these two, anxious and avoidant, tend to partner with each other, which I could go on and on about that dynamic, but um it can be healed, but it's a more challenging dynamic because the inherent need, one needs a lot of connection and reinsurance, and one needs a lot of space and independence. So just their inherent needs are so different because of their attachment style. And then there's fearful avoidant, which is an embedded combination of both. And the truth is, I'm staring at a graph right now. Attachment is a wheel and it fluctuates, so it's a two-way street. So you have your embedded patterns, but how they show up depends on also who you attach to and how their patterns combine with your patterns. And then you have a combined embedded pattern dance between the relationship. And I would say all relationships have a dance to some degree. So it's it's complicated and slayered, but usually you have one way of trying to get your needs met, whether that's reaching out, expanding, being dependent, or being interdependent and isolating when you're scared, shutting down. Um, or if you're lucky to have more secure, you won't do those behaviors quite as much. And if your partner does them, they won't dysregulate you as much. So, you know, we're all trying to work towards what we call earned security, which is a lot of the work that I do is getting. Getting that security from within and depending on the right relationships in order to build that inner security is very important.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Very nice. So, okay, so I got it wrong then. When I was thinking attachment styles, I was thinking like attachment patterns. But what you're talking about is how you show up in a relationship. How is your style of in a relationship?

SPEAKER_03 22:23

And as you were talking, well, there's still there's still patterns. They're definitely patterns. They're more embedded patterns than anything else, just to let you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Okay. But all right, so we'll get to the patterns in a minute. But as you were talking, I remember I heard a story where there was this woman or that was married, and she wanted her husband to tell her that he loved her like five times a day or something like that. And um, as soon as you would tell her he loved her, she waxed again. You know what I mean? So um, in the end, he left her because he couldn't stand always her insecurity wanting to be told that he loved her all the time. So, as you were talking about attachment, obviously this person was very anxious, insecure, one of your one of your labels kind of thing, right? So, how does um so let's say you have one of those, somebody that's very insecure, and and she mates with someone that's very secure. So that person, let's say it's a woman is insecure and the man is very secure, and the woman needs the man to tell her that he loves her all the time. And as soon as he finished telling her, she still wants to be told that she's loved, and he, because he's very secure, doesn't really need her to tell him that he loves him because he's very secure. How is that the dynamic work out?

SPEAKER_03 23:48

We don't know that he's very secure just because he was asking for love. We don't really know the whole picture. We do know that she was insecure, and truthfully, someone that insecure partnering with a true secure person will not only say, I love you, but the essence will be felt. And that security will be built usually in that relationship where the more and more reassurance she gets, the calmer her system will go and the less she'll need it. But if he is avoidant at all, or distracted, or triggers the abandonment by some other behavior he does, or she just senses it and maybe it's not going on. That we're missing a whole piece to that puzzle as to why she was perpetually anxious. Maybe there was some genuine him pulling away that we pick up energetically, or maybe she didn't. But the truth is if he was really secure, there was there more or less is a settling that goes on for an anxious person and the need for reassurance goes down because they start to build that inherent trust with more of a secure partner. So we need a little more of that story. It sounds like he's told that story.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Um, but I think there's more or late in a book somewhere as you were talking about it. But all right, but I like what you say though, because I'm thinking that if someone is that insecure, then they really would never become insecure. And that's basically what what um uh what was the message in this book is that the person, regardless of how much she was told that she was love, never really accepted it. But you're saying that um if someone is very insecure about their partner loving them, and he tells them every day and he shows them and they believe it, that they will settle down. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yeah, I mean, due to neuroplasticity, no one can say that any attachment style is static. We have the research to show that things are always changing and we will move towards warm connection and build new neurowiring and build new secure attachment, the more secure people we attach to, not just our husband or wife, but friends and colleagues, the more we have secure, safe people in our life, the more self-confident and the more inner security is get built. It's actually healthy dependency, interdependency that we're looking for. So if a baby felt like there was a lack of trust and they would be dropped, and they couldn't depend on their primary caregiver when you're adult, and you can actually depend in healthy ways on many different people who are safe and secure, you rebuild that inner security from within, and it's very changeable. It does require a little bit of work, um, but it definitely is a changeable thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Well, that's good. Well, that's good to know that um uh you know, you can be changeable even outside of therapy. Obviously, in therapy, you can change it, but what you're saying, so that's good. I like that. That um, you know, um, and I understand the baby and I understand the parental care. Um uh, you know, the more love you get and the more you you're being held, and and the more you know that when you cry, your parent is there for you, you build that secure trust. Um but what you're saying is, you know, somebody that was, um, I'm picking up the what you're saying, that's someone that was scattered all over the place, right? Let's say, you know, like thinking of the Humpty Dumpy, that you know, they're broken into little pieces and they and they form an attachment with someone that's nurturing them, um, they will start to build back as a whole person.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

That's great that, or they could push that away because it feels so foreign to their system. And this is where it goes to that question like, why do we pick the same people? Someone who has an insecure base might not pick a secure person because their nervous system is very steady and calm and that can feel boring and not exciting for them. So they'll pick what's familiar unconsciously. They will pick, you know, the person in the room. And, you know, a lot of relationship type of psychotherapy says that our core wounds are going to come up no matter who we pick. The subconscious is gonna come up in those deep relationships. But if you find yourself attracting the same type of person over and over again, the bad boy or bad girl, but it's really unavailable, emotionally unavailable person, then that is an indication that you had an unavailable person in your childhood and there's a familiarity there. And so you're trying to repair that trauma.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

I know, which is basically what I thought when you were talking about the attachment style, that's where you're gonna go. Because yes, um, I know that you subconsciously, and I even heard that narcissists um or people that are predators can pick up on the person that is um uh that is insecure, and that's the person that they attach to, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Yeah, well, and a narcissist is deeply insecure themselves. Okay, so there's a there's a sense of that going on in in them as well. But yeah, they can pick up on that, or they will want someone to depend on them because that gives them power, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Right. So there's a power dynamic there. They can actually pick out their victim, but anyway, I interrupted you.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

I'm going zone the zone, going zone to zone, guaranteed to bring it on like always on my guide, always on my guy, you can get my line. I'm going down the zone, going down the zone, guaranteed to bring it on like oh my god, oh it's on my side, my boat with me with the ball with me, I've got a back meet, I'll be back, all mean, I'll never make the brain, go for the back and pick, I've got a free, no back, I better back the flow. With the back and blow, no, I back it up, back in the boat, never flow. Every night taking the flight. So I like that blue bottom of my money. I got a lot of diamonds in the light, I shine so bright when the light is the light, illuminate the right.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

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SPEAKER_02 30:37

So basically, what you're saying that um when we're going into these attachment style patterns, um uh people go for what's familiar. And if it's familiar that, hey, you know, I'm gonna get abused in this relationship, then that's what I'm you know. My husband was a police officer, and he tells me that the same thing, you know, a woman might go in a relationship, and if a man doesn't beat her up, then he doesn't, she doesn't feel that he loves her. That kind of thinking, you know, so that's what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

Yeah, there's a lot of um, you know, subconscious. You might not think or see that in the beginning of the relationship, but there's an allure there that feels familiar, and that you're actually in what Amago would say is that person's trying to heal their trauma by picking their trauma, but unfortunately they end up just re-recreating their trauma without the conscious awareness of what they're really doing. But if if there is an insecure base there by being around friends and families and coaches and people who are secure, you start to start start to feel, oh, this is what it feels like to be in a healthy relationship. And the more you can feel into that, and this is a body experience, the more you realize that's what I want in my romantic partner too. But if you didn't have an experience of healthy relationships, or you don't have them, you're not how are you supposed to know what that actually feels like? And if that shows up, you're probably more than likely going to push that away because you might love feels very different from you. So we have to work on the way that love feels inside your body with new healthy relationships so that you start to learn, no, actually, love feels warm and consistent and reliable and safe. Safety is important. So, you know, it's a little bit of work to kind of help someone see that. And the best way to do that is not through a romantic relationship, but start picking friends and colleagues and therapists and coaches that are really safe and dependable and warm and consistent, and start to see your nervous system start to trust them over and over and start to kind of like this is what relationships are about. They're about inherent trust and safety from a neurosception level, from a nervous system level. We need to feel safe in order to have intimacy or else we're just gonna be reenacting some trauma.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah, okay, wow. Which we do anyway. I wonder nobody is hooking up. Everybody is, you know, because there's all these little subconscious things going on. Now our nervous system is in the mix. Wow. Interesting. All right. So one of the questions I have here is why do we pick partners that reinforce or core wounds and how do we break that cycle? Now I think you touched on that a little bit just now. Um that we picked things that are that are familiar. But um let's touch on the wounds. So let's say that um uh we had parents that were that didn't see us, you know what I mean? We weren't we totally abandoned, but we were not seen. Why why would we find to me, you will be trying to go to the opposite. Like, for instance, if you come out of a relationship with a man that was cheating on you, you don't go look for a cheater, you go look for someone that's not a cheater. So I'm not understanding why we look for someone to reinforce those wounds. Is that the nervous system getting involved again?

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yeah, that's always the automatic nervous system picking things. But so our wounds exist inside of us. So I'm unlovable, I will be left, I'm unworthy. That's an inherent sense that lives in our body. That's not even the story, it's a feeling that lives inside of us. So if we're feeling that way, we can even pick someone who makes us at the center of the world. And as the relationship goes through phases and they step away, whether they really step away or they really neglect the relationship, all the feelings of being unworthy or not being seen or being neglected are actually gonna come to the surface because there was togetherness and then there was separateness, which happens in every relationship. So it's gonna bring that up. The degree in which it brings it up is depends on the person that you pair with. So, you know, it's it's complicated. But I would say if you have, and everybody has this, like I'm unlovable, or I'm gonna be left, or I'm this or I'm that. Like if you can feel charge around that a word or a phrase that you tell yourself, just know that's the story you made up for feeling that's likely gonna happen when you hit hard moments in a relationship. And if you have a healthy relationship, you can work through those hard moments consciously. If you have a turbulent relationship, it might just keep repeating that feeling and that sensation. And again, that's your nervous system going into fight-flight, coming up with stories in your head to match what you're feeling in your body, and you just keep buying the same narrative over again.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Okay, all right. So it doesn't necessarily mean that when we're mating, we're looking for it. It just happens to show up when we're inside the relationship.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Yeah, often like when we're mating or in the beginning of a relationship, you don't know how um, there's there are no protections up, and there's sometimes you don't know how the dance is going to take place until the attachment takes place after more of the honeymoon phase, and start of someone could be scared of intimacy and pull away, or someone could be scared of abandonment and move closer. But these patterns don't show up until a little bit later in the relationship. So it can be really confusing because something could start off really wonderful and go south really fast, and that's because protections and adaptations and your nervous system started to get really scared and it became unsafe really fast for one or both parties.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Yeah, I get you. I get you, I get you. All right. So, what exactly is a trigger? And um, what are some of the tools that we can use when triggered in a relationship? So um uh we talked about some already. Um you know, we can probably label it for you know our listeners, but you talked about um a minute ago, you talked about um abandonment issues. So that's a trigger, you know. Um and I believe, you know, that it doesn't always necessarily come for your from your parents, but you could have been abandoned earlier on in a relationship, you know. A lot of us start dating as a teenager. And um, you know, it it can it do you find that it comes from there or it's always your childhood?

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Well, if it's sensational, it's early, early memory. So if you are a teenager and you're getting left, it can leave pain for sure, and there can be trauma later on in life. But if you have a really secure base, you'll probably be like, oh, you'll recover much faster.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

But if the sensation, so when we're looking at like the subconscious, we're really looking at memory. And so there's different kinds of memory. And so we store memory first when we're really long, young as sensation. We don't have a hippocampus fully developed. So the sensations are really big. We know that there's a clue into something is much younger. And I would say it trigger, I like to use the word awakened because we're awakening in these moments to painful things that are going on inside of our body. But if you know the nervous system, you know, what we know is that we're supposed to, we feel safe in what we call a ventral social connection. It's kind of what you and I are in right now. But we have something called neuroception, um, which an inner or outer cue can can push us into fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, which are other states of our nervous system. So when you hear the when you feel abandoned, right, your system will shift out of safety into fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, depending on how you adapt it in your patterns. So when your body is going into an activated state, usually sympathetic arousal, and your thoughts are like this person, you know, start blaming and projecting, there's a chance that you're not feeling safe in your body. And then that has activated something very scary inside of you. I say it awakens a younger part of you up. And a lot of people use the word trigger. I just recently started to move away from that word because when you say, Oh, this awakened something very scary in me, we can hold that, we can be with that, we can start to understand that, we can link that back. Sometimes when you hear trigger over and again, I think of a gun and I think trauma and shame, but really we're awakening parts of ourselves all the time. And the closer we get to another human, the more likely we're going to awaken deeper parts within ourselves as well.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Wow, you're doing good work. I am very interested in your in your research. It's amazing. All right, so um you have developed this method that's called the self food selfful method. You want to tell us about that? Because sure.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

I mean and I for the viewers, it's in this book that I just published.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

It just came out, this book, and it's all around the people that are that are not watching on video, they're you know the podcast. So tell us.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Yeah, anxiously attached, becoming more secure in life and love. I cover the selfful method really in deep um in here. So I in layman's terms, I worked with a lot of codependent people who would come to my office and I would be like, you need to be more selfish. You need to learn how to take care of yourself. And they would look at me like that's a bad word. It's true. So I developed it.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

We were brought up to tell them that's a bad word. But I just found out the other day, you're right, that selfish just means taking care of yourself. It's not bad.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Well, actually, selfish is not great, but what I said is so selfless is that state I talk about constantly giving and giving and giving. And selfish is a state of taking care and protection. They're not, they're not bad states, either one of them, but they're both sympathetic states of arousal in our nervous system. A selfful state is a norm, is a calm state of connection where there's fluid boundaries, there's an ability to request your needs, there's a sense of safety in the relationship. And we all travel within these states all the time. But you might notice how I'm selfless in my relationship. I tend to self-abandon, I tend to give a lot away, I tend to, you know, people please when I'm in a relationship because I don't want to lose love and I tend to attract really selfish people. That's a dynamic that, you know, you see a lot. So working towards a self-ful place is about doing your own inner work and really being with more parts of yourself and understanding your nervous system in a new way and attracting someone who equally can give and exchange these things so that you don't keep giving, because the giving is an adaptation and is coming from fear rather than always wanting to give, even though it's beautiful. And even a selfish state, which everyone enters, you know, these are states that are fluid. But if you enter a really selfish or closed-down or walled-off state, it's also a state of activation and a state of fear. So those two tend to like kind of be the polar opposites of the spectrum. And self-ful is like a ventral state of connection, warmness, getting yourself, being connected with yourself, being connected with others, feeling safe in your relationship. And so I talk about how to cultivate that within your own body and your nervous system and in the relationships in your life and kind of you know how to work with that and develop more uh moral capacity to be in a self-ful state, or if you get activated to get back into a self-ful state faster, kind of get back to homeostasis faster.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

That's good. As you were talking, I thought of of of myself. Um, you know, a lot of women um require some input from their partners in order to feel good. So let's say, you know, you feel that you're not getting something from your partner, right? And maybe they're not they're not um taking you out or they're not talking to you, or you know what I mean, whatever it is, and then you feel that maybe there's something wrong with you, or you feel abandoned, or you feel not loved, or or whatever, and then you respond to that. One of the things that I have done um for myself is that I'm I mean, you're calling it self-ful, but what I'm thinking of that I'm responsible for my happiness, that my happiness doesn't come from my partner. Would that be almost like the same thing?

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Yeah, but it's not that black and white. Like, yes, we are we are responsible for our own happiness and learning to tend to ourselves is really important, and learning to get some of our needs met is really important through many relationships. But if your partner is ignoring you or shutting down or not calling back, it's gonna elicit pain no matter who you are. And that doesn't mean, you know, it's a degree in the story you make up around that or the sensation and how big the pain is, where we have to meet that and see what that's really about. But a partner disconnecting and not attuning to you is a painful experience because we're biologically wired to say, in connection, and are you with me? Can I trust you? Do you see me? These are actually normal ways of relating to each other. And we want to feel like we are relating to each other during these moments. So if a partner is consistently not meeting your needs, consistently not seeing you, yes, you can work on being happy. And I I work on that in my book. You can work on all the inner work you can, but then at some point you'd have to realize that this partner might not be able to emotionally show up for you or meet your needs. And that's not about you either. That's about you getting honest with what your needs are and what you want.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

Okay. Good, good, good, awesome. All right. So um how can our listeners um uh connect with you? Um uh you know, you've got, you know, first of all, um get a copy of your book. Um and also you are the founder of the Relationship Institute. So tell us about that. Tell us about how they can connect with you and and how they can um become a part of your program.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

Yeah, so I mean my book is everywhere. It's in Barnes and Nobles, it's um Amazon, you name it. It's everywhere. It's gonna be in seven countries, it's just really getting out there in the world. So you can just go on Amazon and put in Anxiously attached, um, becoming more secure in life and love, and you will find me. I have an Instagram page, it's Jessica Baum L M H C. Um, and yeah, beselfful.com is where I have some of my online courses. And the Relationship Institute of Palm Beach is a private practice here in South Florida. We do intense couples work, trauma. I have a five therapist on my team. So we work to collectively to treat um couples and system issues. So those are all the ways that you can, you know, you can find me. And yeah, I've poured my heart and soul into that book and for the last four years. And I think if if you resonate as someone who has codependency or you self-abandon or you give yourself away, it's really a healing path to forming a healthier relationship with yourself, but also getting that fulfilling relationship that you want and truly deserve on the outside. Yeah, you know, it is it on is it on on um audio yet? Yeah, I did the audio, which is probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life. I am the voice and I did a pretty good job, but it was it was really hard. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Excellent. Well, the reason I asked that is because I'm very interested in your book. I mean, um, like I said, you you you um you um highlighted some very different issues um for me today. And anytime I learn something new, I always want to investigate it, you know, because I believe that knowledge is is so is so powerful. So I'm definitely gonna um, you know, I am I listen to audiobooks, so I'm gonna I'm gonna get a copy of it on on audio and definitely listen to it. So listen, Jessica, this is this was an amazing interview right out the gate.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

I'm so happy to get this message out there, and I want to know how you think of it and everything. So please follow up with me and let me know.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Okay, sure, definitely will do. Um, but yes, um, thank you so much for coming on the show and um you know talking to us about our attachment style and and um you know how we show up um based on our memories from our childhood. Uh that is very, very interesting. And um, yes, I definitely want to know more about that. Um because you know, I'm in my 60s and I'm probably showing up some way.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

You know, that I know about. Yes, go ahead. But memory, sensational memory and memories live in the present and they're stored in our body. And we don't even realize it. I thought you people are listening, I don't have trauma, or I don't, we can't fully relate to that. And like I think that's why I wrote the book, because I don't think we we are in a culture that actually understands, no, actually, your experience impacts your lens, your paradigm, every single thing. And if you don't have awareness around that, this is actually your experience, and there's another experience or there's another way, you're gonna stay in your experience because that's what you know. But the truth is we store so much. And the earlier our experiences, we're storing memory when we're in womb, which is crazy. And so we're storing memory in a cellular level, and it doesn't just live in our head, it very, very much lives in our body, it lives in our heart, it lives in our muscles, it lives in our cells, and it lives in our belly. We have a heart brain and we have a belly brain. And if you've ever been in a relationship where someone's ghosted you or not called you back, it's usually your heart or your belly that's firing off because something is saying danger, danger. Yep, definitely fear. Fear is in the belly. Well, fear is usually in the belly, and then your connections, the positive connections, and your heartbreak is usually stored in your heart. So, you know, these centers are actually way more powerful. I shouldn't say more powerful, but 80% of the information you receive every part of the day is shooting your body up to your brain, and it happens much faster than your brain can even process. So your body is scanning and cueing. Like when your partner picks up his phone and he's looking at his phone and all of a sudden you're having sensations in your body, your body is saying, uh-uh, I'm not safe, feeling disconnected right now. Your body is sending that up, and then your brain is saying, My partner's a jerk, he's picking up his phone. But the truth is the feeling of disconnect lives inside of you, and that's a painful experience for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Yes, I agree. I agree totally. And um, yeah, so all right. So listen, this has been interesting. I will definitely pick up a copy of your book. Um, a very interesting conversation. Um uh guys, you know that I will have a transcript of my conversation with Jessica on the show page, which is blog the myhelps.us. I will also have links to her book and also links to her. Send me also the links to your private practice. Um, did you give me the website for that?

SPEAKER_03 49:40

I'm gonna put it in the chat.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Oh, yeah, be selfful.com.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

Yeah, and then Amazon link would be great. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Do you do you want that link? No, I can find it. I can just search for your book and find it. So yeah, I will I will link out and um I will link out to her website and link out to her books, and um, you can get, you know, if you missed something that we have spoken about here, then you can um, you know, re-listen to it on any of the 24 podcast players or just head to the show page for a transcript. So Jessica, thank you so much for being on the show for opening my eyes on um uh relationships, which is one of my favorite things. And um, you know, good luck in your practice. And of course, you're you're right here in Florida. So any of our local listeners, you know, you can you can definitely go check her out at the Relationship Institute of Palm Beach.

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Any last words before we wrap up? I just want to say thank you for asking me these questions and bearing with my very detailed answers and just I love that. Just being here with you. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

You're very welcome. All right, guys. Well, listen, thanks for tuning in to the Transform Your Mind to Transform Your Life radio podcast and television show. If you haven't done so already, please rate and review the show. And um remember to share with your friends. Now, this was an interview that I'm sure that um uh someone of your friends can benefit from. So thanks again for tuning in again. Thank you, Jessica, for coming on the show. And until next time, Namaste.